- This topic has 20 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated June 8, 2012 at 12:30 pm by Pat McDonald.
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June 7, 2012 at 4:22 pm #1053188
What exactly gives the right to a police force, in the UK, to seize a generator and sound equipment?
I’m looking for legal loopholes here, (which obviously I’m not going to post). So, can those experienced and up to date people out there please point me at the regulations so I can find ways to circumvent them in a completely legal and above board fashion?
Pretty please with sugar ‘n almonds on it?
EDIT: It’s either that or target the buggers. Which I don’t want to do.
June 7, 2012 at 4:26 pm #1254355I think the only “loophole” left is to hold a legal event, all done by the books. At least for outdoor parties anyway.
June 7, 2012 at 4:31 pm #1254346PACE 1984 which allows any constable to seize property which is either directly used for a crime or evidence of thereof. this predates the CJA or any other specific anti-rave laws and is what is most commonly used to seize the sound equipment.
in modern England and Wales, a TENS license is £21 and I’ve recently had everyone from old bill and councillors to idealistic young hippy girls personally telling me that these are now relatively easy to get even in areas with zero tolerance. They aren’t a license to completely take the piss and there are basic safety/accountability rules but a lot of events are now held using these. Scotland has its own legal system and may not have TENS licenses.
June 7, 2012 at 4:33 pm #1254363C’mon folks. Give me statute and regulations. Cops been shouting them at you for years, nobody check? OK, it’s not an everyday question.
Incidentally, all citizens of the UK still have common law rights of arrest – you can arrest cops if you observe them breaking the law, or have reasonable suspicion of them doing so. No repeal (you cannot repeal common law).
Getting a judge to actually see it your way is easier said than done, but now we got youtube, we got the net, and quite frankly I’m not taking this shit anymore.
June 7, 2012 at 4:53 pm #1254347PACE 1984 is here. Whilst the “journalistic privelige” bit does actually work it would be unlikely to do so to justify an unlicensed music event.
Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984
Judges tend to use the “reasonable person” argument for a lot of things (which is fair enough) and that any actions usually contrary to common law (such as limiting anyones freedom of movement or property rights) should be proportionate to prevent a greater crime/evil. The difficulty with unlicensed raves held in areas without permission since 2005 is that a “reasonable alternative” now exists via the TENS system and there have also been some really unpleasant safety-related incidents at them in recent years.
In EA 2007 there would be at least one ambo every week to pick up k casualties. Even the cops only really started beefing up anti rave enforcement after TENS licenses became widely available and those putting on events started taking the piss. in the same region, yogurt weavers can (and do) go and protest outside Sizewell every day if they so wish without major hassles.
June 7, 2012 at 4:58 pm #1254359Playing music without a license, sale of alcohol without a license, no designated parking area, no designated first aiders and health and safety officers, no risk assessments, no permission to use land (yes publicly owned land still requires permission which will be turned down),
June 7, 2012 at 4:59 pm #1254364Thanks GL and Moonie. I’ll be thinking about this over the weekend… only obvious way out would be to bill an event (in writing, in form of notice) as a “political gathering” which should then be covered by Representation of the People Act 1951…
… If I come up with anything better, I won’t be posting it here. 😉
June 7, 2012 at 5:04 pm #1254348@Pat McDonald 482399 wrote:
only obvious way out would be to bill an event (in writing, in form of notice) as a “political gathering” which should then be covered by Representation of the People Act 1951…
it got tried back in the 80s by of all people an offshoot of the Young Conservatives, as was blagging private parties on land owned by rich people. The laws got tightened up again because of this and is why in some council areas (not all) even private parties can be classed as licenseable. The Left also have tried it with links to various protest actions especially in the 90s but not all lefties support hedonistic lifestyles to the point some would even want the cops to stop their group being “infiltrated” by ravers/hedonists (ironically because of how things like the ethos of 1960s pirate radio stations was hijacked by free market liberals).
I don’t think the problem is really with the Police, or the law though, it is with the kind of person what calls nines because they have encountered a bunch of kids in the forest partying whilst walking their dog, and objects to any kind of tolerated night life in towns etc either directly or through their voting patterns. You can now have EDM events even in strict SE Asian nations sometimes more easily than in Blighty!
June 7, 2012 at 5:11 pm #1254356What happens if you rent a rig and the police try to seize it? if they tried to keep/crush it wouldn’t that be illegal?
June 7, 2012 at 5:14 pm #1254365Nope. Because a rental agreement has to be lawful (equipment has to be used for a lawful purpose) and if it turns out the purpose was not deemed lawful then the hire agreement is void.
Cops can get away with murder. And have done so. And have never been prosecuted.
EDIT: I don’t blame the cops for that. I blame the people who just “Let it be”.
June 7, 2012 at 5:17 pm #1254357@Pat McDonald 482404 wrote:
Nope. Because a rental agreement has to be lawful (equipment has to be used for a lawful purpose) and if it turns out the purpose was not deemed lawful then the hire agreement is void.
Cops can get away with murder. And have done so. And have never been prosecuted.
EDIT: I don’t blame the cops for that. I blame the people who just “Let it be”.
what’s the crime for putting on an illegal rave with rented speakers you did wrong with then?
June 7, 2012 at 5:19 pm #1254349if the sound firm genuinely did not know the equipment was being used for a UME they would get the kit back (its not guns or drugs or illegal radio transmitters) but only after dobbing in the rave crew for fraud in the hire agreement, so if they and the sound firm are friends and want to remain such this is unlikely to happen. I’ve not hired sound equipment for years but would expect any pro audio firm would want to see a copy of the TENS or other license (which they are entitled to as is any citizen as its a public record). Same as car hire firms usually would check someone has a driving license…
June 7, 2012 at 5:32 pm #1254358Would you think renting it would be a better choice than risking your own getting crushed? are there big corporations that rent out systems.
June 7, 2012 at 5:40 pm #1254350it won’t work, the big corporations would either ask to see your event license or contact the Council directly to check if you had one. They also rent out sound systems for corporate events and wouldn’t want to be associated with crime. Most of the younger staff in them are fully aware of the dance music scene and may have been (or are) involved… TBH if you are in the position to sign a formal legal rental agreement anyway and have permission to use a space it wouldn’t be that difficult to get a TENS these days which is merely a formal legal agreement with the local Council.
June 7, 2012 at 11:16 pm #1254360Currently building a rig and I’m already bricking it about getting it seized/destroyed, anyone got any tips on holding on to it? (Other than the obvious “turn it off when they tell you to”)
June 7, 2012 at 11:30 pm #1254361if its not taxed, its illegal
June 7, 2012 at 11:43 pm #1254351@know_hope 482503 wrote:
if its not taxed, its illegal
there is however no reason why the UK could not adopt the same stance as NL, basically accept that events will be held somewhere and make it affordable to put one on. This event is licensed and so other than drugs everything else provides tax revenue to the wider community – sound equipment, the use of utilities. it creates jobs and makes people smarter, Dutch youths seem to have the tech/electronics knowledge of people my age here in England – a lot of this though is because people my age aren’t put off going to a event and so knowledge is passed down the line, and things younger folk learn putting on raves can be used for other less noisy purposes in their day jobs.
June 7, 2012 at 11:51 pm #1254354Here’s the answer……
June 8, 2012 at 1:10 am #1254362the dutch have it good. when i went there i was surprised to here tiesto (ok its mainstream trance, but at least it is actually real dance music) on one of the main radio stations in the day time, and normal people there seem quite into it. so nice
June 8, 2012 at 1:20 am #1254352@know_hope 482553 wrote:
the dutch have it good. when i went there i was surprised to here tiesto (ok its mainstream trance, but at least it is actually real dance music) on one of the main radio stations in the day time, and normal people there seem quite into it. so nice
its also way easier to get a community radio station license as we don’t let the national broadcaster hog half of band II like the BBC does here (Ofcom hasn’t got the balls to ask them to give up any of their allocations especially now they’ve offloaded interference monitoring to Auntie)..
what really made me laugh is I found out the bulk of FM pirate stations in NL are run by 50 year olds mostly and play piratenhits – a bizzare form of music only found in NL which is basically Nederpop mixed with oompah bands (all sung in Dutch) – good for learning the language but when you hear it you will understand why anyone below 45 usually listens to Tiësto instead….
June 8, 2012 at 12:30 pm #1254353@know_hope 482553 wrote:
the dutch have it good. when i went there i was surprised to here tiesto (ok its mainstream trance, but at least it is actually real dance music) on one of the main radio stations in the day time, and normal people there seem quite into it. so nice
This dude from NL (though he now lives in the USA) set up a website to teach folk the language and this is on his music page
Some of The Contemporary Music Scene
Tijs (Thijs) Verwest (Tiësto)
Ferry Corsten
Armin van BuurenPaul van Dyk
Benno de Goeij
Sander Kleinenberg
Ilse de Lange -
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