Forums Music Sound Engineering need help, sound for long distance

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  • #1052581
    mfardan
    Participant

      at beginning, thanks for everybody for sharing knowledge.
      my case like that:

      (side A)<<


      2KM


      (PA1 Main Control PA2)


      2KM


      >>(side B)

      1-I have fixed two High Power PA Amplifiers with 1000 WATTS for each.
      2-I have used 1.5mm wiring to connect PA Horn Speakers.
      3-I have connect 130 PA Horn Speakers at each side from center to side A and side B.
      4-The Horn Speaker setting at 5WATTS.
      5-The PA Amplifiers Speaker Outputs settings at 100V


      PA Specification
      1-The PA Amplifiers Speaker Outputs 2ohm & 4ohm, 70V & 100V
      2-The PA Amplifiers Input Channels
      8 × Mic 0.8mV/4.7k ohm, 3 × Aux 100mV/50k ohm
      1 × Aux 250mV/50k ohm
      1 × Line 1V/50k ohm



      The Problem:-
      above 1KM from the center, the sound becomes boor.

      how to solve this problem? and make the sound reach the full 2 km at each side.

      At the end Thanks again

      #1251525
      cheeseweasel
      Participant

        I hire out and install 100V horn systems a fair bit.

        Firstly, am I right in thinking that you’re using 130 horns on each side, i.e. 260 horns? Or did you mean something else? As that’s a hell of a lot of horns!

        How have you got them arranged? You mention that it is too quiet 2km away from the centre. Are they just in a massive cluster, left and right, or do you have them arranged on poles, evenly spaced along the full distance?

        Does it look like this??

        du_09.1.jpg

        What is the maximum rated power for the horns. 5W is very low – what’s the maximum tapping on the transformer. Could you not get away with using fewer horns but on the higher power tapping?

        Also, projecting clear sound 2km is asking a lot from any PA system.

        Finally, what the hell is this for???!!

        #1251523
        General Lighting
        Moderator

          Given the IP address and the use of “non music quality” speakers possibly a call to prayer system and/or PA for somewhere like a University campus. in the UK we use VHF radio frequencies for this purpose and folk listen for these on portable radio receivers and other similar equipment but thats alsoi because we are not supposed to have a dominant religion and there are laws against anyone making too much noise without a license.

          Also the cable might still be on the thin side given the length of the run. the old Philips 2kVA amp had a 200 V line!

          AVW: Reference Documents

          #1251528
          mfardan
          Participant

            thanks for reply dears (General Lighting) and (cheeseweasel)

            yes its prayer system.
            and i have draw a diagram for the system

            [ATTACH=CONFIG]81497[/ATTACH]

            is there any idea or suggestion to help us?
            Some UHF/VHF wireless doesn’t help us with crowded people.

            #1251527
            cheeseweasel
            Participant

              OK, well you look to have everything pretty much connected up properly. My only slight concern is that on the diagram you have the horns tapped at 10W (not 5W, as you originally mentioned). If you are running them on the 10W tap you will be exceeding the amp’s 1000W maximum power output, which is a bad thing. With 100V line equipment, the golden rule is that you can have as many horns as you like as long as they don’t exceed the amp’s maximum rated power output.

              Are you looking for a way to make the system louder overall to reach the full 2km, or do you want to make the system project further without necessarily increasing the sound levels near to the horns (and deafening people)?

              There are a few things you could do to make the system louder:

              – Assuming that you’re using the 5W tap and not the 10W, you are currently using 650W per side (5 x 130) out of a possible 1000W. You could get away with setting some at 10W to use as much of the amp’s power as possible. If you set the 60 horns that are highest above the ground to 10W, you’d then be using 950W out of 1000W.
              – Use a graphic eq to cut any frequencies that the horns can’t reproduce. Horns have a pretty narrow bandwidth and there is no point sending them anything below their cutoff frequency – it just uses up headroom in the system. It is standard practice to filter out very low frequencies with 100V line anyway, as these tend to make the transformers saturate (distort).
              – As GL said, make sure your cables are thick enough. Your 1.5mm^2 cables will be good for a 50m run. If you have much more than 50m of cabling connecting your horns to the amp then consider buying some thicker cable.

              You might find that even with making the system louder, it’s still difficult to hear things clearly 2km away. Projecting good sound this kind of distance is asking a lot from any soundsystem; air is good at absorbing high frequencies and this effect will be noticeable over such a long distance (see this website to find out exactly how much). Also, in a hot country (compared with UK!) air currents can do strange things to the sound, reducing intelligibility.

              The best solution, and the way most large public address systems are arranged over here, is to have the horns distributed evenly around the area, with each horn covering a small area, rather than having them all in one big cluster. I appreciate that this is probably not an option for you, but it would solve all of your problems.

              #1251524
              General Lighting
              Moderator

                that pic cheesweasel posted is actually from Malaysia (any link to the article? I don’t understand Malay buy has my mum come over to visit and she does). I suspect this rig is also put there to do what mfrardan wanted, if it were for music they’d use the same speakers as Westerners do, but near it is clearly too loud. the chaps stopping their ears look like they are Malay.

                in some countrys they put the horns up at high level at the minaret (or similar tall structures used by other faiths where it is permitted to use loudspeakers ) but there are often safety and planning rules against this.

                This could also be a semi-portable system for the larger Friday prayers, which are held in the open air rather than at a smaller mosque. so there may not always be a nearby minaret, or an easy way of putting speakers up there. For instance until the projects ended, there was a large Friday prayer assembly at the British Telecom research centre, for the benefit of the engineers who had come from South Asia and were Muslims (not all of them were, some followed other religions). I am not sure how the call to prayer was given (probably over some sophisticated IP network to smartphones) but they certainly wouldn’t be allowed to put horns up at the Orion tower, as it would din the ears of half of Martlesham and as far as Kesgrave and Rushmere St Andrews :laugh_at:

                the content sent down these rigs is already equalised for the limited bandwidth of horn speakers. A few years ago a friend from the Punjab said that “pop music” was not explicitly banned by his form of Islam, but it was not right to let it distract you from prayer or family duties. He did also like reggae and Dutch gabber! I am not sure how he got introduced to the second though suspect it might even have been through the mosques of the Netherlands as there are many Indonesian chaps there.

                Another method used for long distance PA is to send the low level audio on fixed telephone lines or radio links and use more smaller local amplifiers, powered by the easiest available electricity supply. But I appreciate that the OP is not currently in the most politically stable country, (Malaysia has had some rough times in the past too), and that is also why they want to keep the speakers in the same area as they could be prone to theft and sabotage.

                #1251529
                mfardan
                Participant

                  heloo dears (General Lighting) and (cheeseweasel)

                  thanks for your time:sign0098: to sahre us your knowledge. and we will learn from the expert:sign0092:

                  beacuse of exam:rolleyes: i was so late for replying.

                  @General Lighting 472520 wrote:

                  for the benefit of the engineers who had come from South Asia and were Muslims (not all of them were, some followed other religions).

                  .
                  is there any chance to link (contact)us with those enginer

                  i have search for an adaptor that convert 100v line to line level.so i can distribute mini amp along the area.
                  and i am going to order them from the net.

                  thanks again :sign0092:

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                Forums Music Sound Engineering need help, sound for long distance