@Lshak 538709 wrote:

Just think of it from a religious point of you and a different perspective, if you had put everyone on earth as a test to see if we can be trusted with knowledge that we gained from the forbidden fruit, would you appreciate your creation knowing the truth, seeing it all around them and then completely ignoring and shunning him out?

This is the single reason that if there is a ‘heaven’ I don’t want to be there. You say your god is all powerful and all knowing, then why do so many children suffer? Why does he let them suffer? That’s fine if he wants to test and punish adults but what about the young and the innocent?
It sounds to me as though your God is immoral. Therefor ‘heaven’ is an immoral place full of immoral people.
But the religious book itself is in my opinion disgusting. (for simular reason poly pointed out…Muhammed as/is not a good person.

I don’t hate the Islamic people because I know why they are so pious and follow the religion…I can see the need for faith. I just wish they would look elsewhere and not this horrendous and backwards religion 🙁

@DeezNuts 538716 wrote:

I agree with you but the vast majority of religions are horrendous and backwards as they were created thousands of years ago on now outdated principles and ways of life. I can’t agree with ideologies that aren’t for equality, even if it means that as a middle class white male I have an epic time, as I wouldn’t want to be in one of the sections of society that basically have a shit life due to others, it ain’t right.

Even at the time they where written, whos to say that way of life benefited people back then ?
I don’t think these religions benefit societies in any time or place. Especially the sexual repression aspects of it (which is horrendous for both sexes, we all deserve sexual liberation)

hey Lshak. its interesting that you have gone from being a total non believer to this full on religious guy in an instant. was there some sort of specific moment were it all completely changed because you have changed your entire beliefs so rapidly i find it strange

@joksgez 538735 wrote:

hey Lshak. its interesting that you have gone from being a total non believer to this full on religious guy in an instant. was there some sort of specific moment were it all completely changed because you have changed your entire beliefs so rapidly i find it strange

this seems quite common in the more devout/extreme sections. i was in israel quite a lot and my gf lost a few friends in this way. here today gone tomorrow. two of her friends were a really nice hippie-ish couple that would come round and play flute, guitar and sing, smoke some weed etc. they were ppl that were really interested in others. they had a big religious wedding and after that it was completely different. they were still nice but it was like they’d become robots, the wife with a wig. i remember they came round to my gf’s and the previous time it was friendly big hugs goodbye, this time i hugged the wife and she was fine with it but she’s not supposed have this contact with another guy… i think these religions are very absorbing for those that it may appeal to. its not so much like here, loosely going to church hungover on a sunday morning

Unbalanced societies create unbalanced people.

It’s all very well blaming the individual, but what sane person can watch a TV News bulletin and cheer at every item?

Moral: Don’t watch news bulletins. You can bet your last penny they won’t show you anything useful or applicable to you.

Control the information, you control how people think. Now THAT’S what I call evil.

@Chrispydelic 538752 wrote:

Point 1. We have already established that he damns people to hell, who may have lived really just and selfless lives just because due to circumstance, they believe in the wrong thing (does that sound merciful to you?)[/quote]

Complete nonsense from an Islamic perspective. People are condemned not for their beliefs but for their actions. So stuff that idea back up your arse, Chrispy.

@Chrispydelic 538752 wrote:

Point 2. So do you believe in the whole original sin and garden of Eden thing? Because it is not physically possible for the human race to have evolved the way it has from only one man and one woman. We would all be hideously deformed if we were still around at all. Plus it has been proven that Homo Sapiens originated in Africa somewhere around 20,000 years ago.

While I agree with you on the points of evolution being the best fit with the evidence, actual “proof” is somewhat more tenuous than you suggest.

Also, some scientists are concluding from the DNA record that there is a common male ancestor to all humans. It’s more to do with an early mass extinction than one man shagging every woman he came across, but nontheless, “Adam” might actually be a real concept.

Have a nice day. 🙂

The Islamic concept in short form;-

1) One angel to your right notes all your good deeds.

2) Another angel to your left notes all your bad deeds.

3) After death, one good deed erases one bad deed.

4) Those with any bad deeds still noted burn.

As for the rest of your posts, I really have better things to do than be conjectural about scientific potshards of data that do not add up. Their isn’t even a hypothesis about how humans (homo sapiens) actually spread/travelled/migrated. So any further discussion on that really is just arguing the toss.

Seems to me only thing religion is good for is starting arguments

@Mezz 538772 wrote:

Seems to me only thing religion is good for is starting arguments

Agreed mate, even on this thread, people who normally get along really well are disagreeing with one another quite vociferously.

Anyway, here’s what Aussie comedian Jim Jefferies has to say about religion, I think it sums it up nicely…

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@Chrispydelic 538776 wrote:

It’s been pretty good for hijacking this thread! lol

Anyway it’s not arguments, it’s debate! Religion, politics and philosophy are the best topics for this as everyone has a slightly different opinion or interpretation.

Yeah it turns into an argument when people get all personal, which most of us have refrained from (even Lshak which is pretty admirable) I’d call this here a debate 🙂

@Lshak 538789 wrote:

Well it was gradual, but then it came down harder and so much more intensely than anything I’ve experienced. And I wouldn’t say I’m some “full on religious guy”, I am a guy who has found bliss in religion (islam) and am just exploring it, and have a very strong belief in it. I have had a personal spiritual/religious awakening, unless you were in my position and experienced what I did, you can’t judge me and my beliefs, and if you did, I couldn’t care less to be honest lol

Regarding hell, I don’t know, all I know for sure is what pat stated about the Angels on your shoulders, and a few other things about death, apparently you will know exactly where you are going when you die, you will either be greeted by angel Gabriel and other angels pleasantly, or the angel of death with many angels behind him that won’t look so friendly, there will also be a bridge, if you have been a good person in your life (it is the final test) you will take one step and be on the other side In heaven instantly, or you will fall, or even have to crawl across it, depending on your deeds.

I don’t know exactly what happens this is information I have been given from religious people in the mosque such as imams, possibly you won’t go to hell for your beliefs, like I said good is bliss and perfect and very merciful, we were put here to make mistakes and learn from them. At the end of the day, god judges you and you alone, on the day of resurrection you will stand alone in front of god and have to talk to him.

I will provide scientific evidence of religion, particularly islam (although all religions have scientific proof) right after dinner.

nah im not judging i just found it interesting; you’re completely entitled to your own opinions. i studied miracles and conversion and religion in college and it was all very interesting

@Lshak 538803 wrote:

Good man, another intellectual person I’ve found that has an open mind and curiousity for others and understanding that everyone is different 🙂 5 months ago, I would’ve called bullshit on every miracle, including my girlfriends, funny how the tables have turned for me now haha

It isn’t we’re not open minded it is simply that we are probably a little more empirical than you and since we’ve been granted no evidence to change our minds we follow the scientific facts we do know.

For example I don’t believe in ghosts either but that is only because I’ve never had experience of the supernatural to make me think otherwise. Should I see a ghost or be visited by an angel then yeah I’ll believe.

Yes I have read these passages before. They are unconvincing at best. Believers are simply reading into it what they want. They are as subjective as what Mystic Meg would come up with on her weekly horoscope as you can interpret them to suit your beliefs.

The term ‘smoke’ is very subjective and is not really how matter was constructed anyway. Ok, gasses were the first molecules on the periodic table to be created after the big bang and then by fusion they bonded and formed heavier and heavier molecules but it doesn’t really say that does it?

“And the heaven we constructed with strength and indeed we are it’s expander”. Really? That could be interpreted in so many ways. Just because it mentions the universe (in a somewhat vague manor) and expansion doesn’t really explain inflation theory and that fact that the bodies in the universe are moving apart now does it?

The pairs thing could easily be interpreted as being of male and female also (and this would seem more likely 1500 years ago) but we know that this is not always the case as some plants and animals are A-sexual.

I’m not going to go into the rest of these as I think that people will begin to see my point now. I have a copy of the pamphlet that you are quoting from (which was given to me by a Muslim friend who claimed it was proof that Islam knew about things that we only know now in science) and it didn’t convince me at all I’m afraid. My subscription to New Scientist Magazine is far more enlightening thankyou.