- This topic has 506 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated May 27, 2013 at 12:03 am by 12BarBlues.
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April 5, 2013 at 3:47 pm #1270227
Anonymous
@Lshak 538278 wrote:
The greatest thing the devil has ever done is to make people that he does not exist, therefore god would not exist to those poor minds also
its certainly got a ring to it
April 5, 2013 at 3:48 pm #1270444@photographthesun 538277 wrote:
But if god made everything and is all knowing firstly he created the concept of greed and suffering and he gave it to us. And if he is all knowing he must have seen the suffering his design would create, so why not create something better?
Because an omnipotent God that decided every step that every person made would be a controller for slaves. People are extraordinary in their ability both to reason, and in their ability to misjudge and make huge mistakes based on faulty information and faulty judgement of that information.
People have free will. (At least, if you think you have free will, you may have. If you believe you have no free will and no choice, then you don’t).
April 5, 2013 at 3:49 pm #1270445@photographthesun 538281 wrote:
its certainly got a ring to it
That’s because it’s a meme.
April 5, 2013 at 3:51 pm #1270356@Izbeckistan 538236 wrote:
If god performs miricles and helps people over come cancer, why does he not help kids in sweat shops, the sex trade and dying from starvation?
Because they do not necessarily all ask for help, ask and you shall receive even if you are a non-believer.
When you ask, be patient, if you ask to cure someone’s health and they do not recover maybe god just prolonged their life. If you ask for money, maybe he helped you avoid a misfortune that would’ve set you back, and don’t ask in exact detail such as, I’d like a house on the sea shore by Miami. And don’t stop asking.
God is angry at you if you do not ask, unlike humans you can ask got 100000 times and he won’t be angry, ask a person 3 times for something and they’d get annoyed
April 5, 2013 at 3:51 pm #1270228@Pat McDonald 538282 wrote:
Because an omnipotent God that decided every step that every person made would be a controller for slaves. People are extraordinary in their ability both to reason, and in their ability to misjudge and make huge mistakes based on faulty information and faulty judgement of that information.
People have free will. (At least, if you think you have free will, you may have. If you believe you have no free will and no choice, then you don’t).
I don’t fully understand your wording (typo? or me?) but why not still have free will but turn up the good qualities in man and down the negative? And what about people who dont have free will like the mentally ill?
Any if he is all seeing all knowing why did he cock it up and commit genocide (the whole flooding the earth thing)?
April 5, 2013 at 3:51 pm #1270446@Chrispydelic 538280 wrote:
This is the other problem I have with the big three religions. Believe that this is right or suffer eternal damnation in hell. Doesn’t really seem fair does it? Seeing as how we have only geography or the beliefs of our parents or peers to steer us in the right direction.
For example: If I were borne in a part of the world where say Islam is the order of they day and because the majority of people surrounding me believe in the same thing I am bound to feel that this is they way that is correct and so I would be pleased in the knowledge that as long as I stick to the rules, I am guaranteed a place in heaven.
Now apply this to each of the big three. Christianity, Islam and judaism. They are all convinced that they are correct and presumably are sure in their knowledge that they are not going to hell. But they can’t all be correct.
I would just like to add that I am not an atheist and not exactly an agnostic.
So, quite possibly, there isn’t a heaven or hell save what me make and choose…
… put it this way. I have seen evidence of informational transfer beyond death… but that’s it. So I’m not one for reincarnation, logically disprovable at the one to one “my soul goes on forever” sort of thing.
April 5, 2013 at 3:52 pm #1270229@Pat McDonald 538285 wrote:
That’s because it’s a meme.
it was in a film too I remember it from a kid, something to do with Tigers or Lions attacking.
Lots of catchy bits in the bible it was designed to sell as it were
April 5, 2013 at 3:54 pm #1270357@barrettone 538268 wrote:
Riddle me this though. How do you know your religion is right? What about the Hindus, the Shinto, the Taoists, Buddhists, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, Jainists, etc? They’re all as firmly set in their beliefs as you are. What authority have you to say that they are wrong?
I’m afraid my knowledge on these religions are not very accurate, but for starters they do not have a sole scared book, they believe in multiple creators and their gods form the shape of baphomet the devil
April 5, 2013 at 3:56 pm #1270358@photographthesun 538271 wrote:
And you are more sure that heaven exists than it doesnt? And you have given thought as to why you think this and you are sure as you can be that its not just external influences rather than your own choice?
If you answer as I think you will then go for it even if your wrong you wont be happy living a life where you think you might go to hell. So this path, even if you are wrong about your faith, is still the logical choice.
As long as you have felt this way for a while I would not be rash.
Well it’s why my faith is so strong, because I never used to believe and then I suddenly got hit by religion, a feeling that you will not understand, but hopefully inshallah you will before your time on earth comes to an end
April 5, 2013 at 3:57 pm #1270447@photographthesun 538287 wrote:
I don’t fully understand your wording (typo? or me?) but why not still have free will but turn up the good qualities in man and down the negative? And what about people who dont have free will like the mentally ill? [/quote]
Most people shun power. Power, to do good or harm, is easy on the individual level… and an unpleasant place to be for the people who do so.
In my opinion, the vast majority of people are “mentally ill”, in the sense that their conditioned fears and prejudice get in the way of their judgements. Quite probably some of the people locked up as “insane” are actually the ones with the correct facts… but a population that had only correct facts, and no disinformation, would be very difficult to control for the humans who take up the power to direct.
@photographthesun 538287 wrote:
Any if he is all seeing all knowing why did he cock it up and commit genocide (the whole flooding the earth thing)?
Literal truth of the Bible? I don’t do that. Anyway, flooding the earth is pretty minor compared to, say, ramming an asteroid containing toxic material as happened with the dinosaurs. Or rapid climate change that froze Mammoths feasting quite happily on flowers one minute and Captain Birdseye frozen solid the next.
April 5, 2013 at 4:01 pm #1270359@Chrispydelic 538280 wrote:
This is the other problem I have with the big three religions. Believe that this is right or suffer eternal damnation in hell. Doesn’t really seem fair does it? Seeing as how we have only geography or the beliefs of our parents or peers to steer us in the right direction.
For example: If I were borne in a part of the world where say Islam is the order of they day and because the majority of people surrounding me believe in the same thing I am bound to feel that this is they way that is correct and so I would be pleased in the knowledge that as long as I stick to the rules, I am guaranteed a place in heaven.
Now apply this to each of the big three. Christianity, Islam and judaism. They are all convinced that they are correct and presumably are sure in their knowledge that they are not going to hell. But they can’t all be correct.
I would just like to add that I am not an atheist and not exactly an agnostic.
Maybe someone can correct me but I’m out at the moment and can’t find the verse but Allah has told us not to believe anything unless we have read it for our selves and came to a conclusion solely, read the Quran, all of you, and maybe you will understand.
But I know you won’t, because the devil has made you believe Allah is a terrible god, educate yourselves by the book, and once you have finished it, we can discuss the topic and if love to then hear your views on god and religion
Otherwise you are blindly not following religion, isn’t it ironic you say we follow religion blindly without you reading the holy books ?
April 5, 2013 at 4:01 pm #1270724@Lshak 538286 wrote:
If you ask for money, maybe he helped you avoid a misfortune that would’ve set you back
I have heard it all now.
Wait.. I didn’t lose more money? GOD MUST BE REAL!
April 5, 2013 at 4:01 pm #1270303@Lshak 538290 wrote:
I’m afraid my knowledge on these religions are not very accurate, but for starters they do not have a sole scared book, they believe in multiple creators and their gods form the shape of baphomet the devil
You see the thing is…if you’d grown up in India, you’d probably be a Hindu. If you’d grown up in Japan, you could be a Shinto, if you grew up in classical Greece, you would worship Zeus and Apollo, if you grew up in Israel, you’d be a Jew, if you grew up in Denmark during the time of the Vikings you would worship Odin and Thor, if you grew up in Imperial China you’d be a buddhist or a taoist. Adherents of each of these religions will claim that they have seen their own God or Gods’ work. There’s no way you can say that you are right in this instance, and in fact it is quite intolerant of you to say that a Hindu is worshipping devils.
April 5, 2013 at 4:02 pm #1270304@Lshak 538294 wrote:
Maybe someone can correct me but I’m out at the moment and can’t find the verse but Allah has told us not to believe anything unless we have read it for our selves and came to a conclusion solely, read the Quran, all of you, and maybe you will understand.
But I know you won’t, because the devil has made you believe Allah is a terrible god, educate yourselves by the book, and once you have finished it, we can discuss the topic and if love to then hear your views on god and religion
Otherwise you are blindly not following religion, isn’t it ironic you say we follow religion blindly without you reading the holy books ?
Admittedly the most recently I read the Qu’ran was about 3 or 4 years ago, but my review was not very favourable.
April 5, 2013 at 4:07 pm #1270360@barrettone 538295 wrote:
You see the thing is…if you’d grown up in India, you’d probably be a Hindu. If you’d grown up in Japan, you could be a Shinto, if you grew up in classical Greece, you would worship Zeus and Apollo, if you grew up in Israel, you’d be a Jew, if you grew up in Denmark during the time of the Vikings you would worship Odin and Thor, if you grew up in Imperial China you’d be a buddhist or a taoist. Adherents of each of these religions will claim that they have seen their own God or Gods’ work. There’s no way you can say that you are right in this instance, and in fact it is quite intolerant of you to say that a Hindu is worshipping devils.
Very correct, but if I grew up a Jew and was a real jew I would have read the Torah, believed its prophecies followed it to the old testimony following it to islam. Everyone has a choice to read other religious books, and that’s why we are lucky compared to people back in the day who didnt have Internet to find sources
April 5, 2013 at 4:07 pm #1270483@barrettone 538295 wrote:
You see the thing is…if you’d grown up in India, you’d probably be a Hindu. If you’d grown up in Japan, you could be a Shinto, if you grew up in classical Greece, you would worship Zeus and Apollo, if you grew up in Israel, you’d be a Jew, if you grew up in Denmark during the time of the Vikings you would worship Odin and Thor, if you grew up in Imperial China you’d be a buddhist or a taoist. Adherents of each of these religions will claim that they have seen their own God or Gods’ work. There’s no way you can say that you are right in this instance, and in fact it is quite intolerant of you to say that a Hindu is worshipping devils.
Which again points to a problem. Why would God want to favor people who were born in certain regions without even giving them the chance in some cases to make up their own minds?
April 5, 2013 at 4:09 pm #1270240@photographthesun 538272 wrote:
why? that went right over my head
what have you just had delivered to your door, and what activity are strongly religious people often suspected of doing to advance their causes? 😉
April 5, 2013 at 4:09 pm #1270361@barrettone 538296 wrote:
Admittedly the most recently I read the Qu’ran was about 3 or 4 years ago, but my review was not very favourable.
How so? What stopped you from further exploring islam?
April 5, 2013 at 4:11 pm #1270449@barrettone 538296 wrote:
Admittedly the most recently I read the Qu’ran was about 3 or 4 years ago, but my review was not very favourable.
Some English translations are… rubbish. For want of a better word.
One’s I’d recommend are Yusuf Ali and Marmaduke Pickthall. Even they are not 100%, but they are readable. The Penguin Classic isn’t that bad but you get an awful lot of background notes from the Yusuf Ali.
April 5, 2013 at 4:12 pm #1270362God guides and misguided who he likes, maybe, just maybe me, and the other people supporting god are your guidance, its your choice to decide for yourselves, all I’m saying is don’t blindly ignore religion, look into it, make up your mind.
If its not your cup of tea after that, then fair enough, I just hope for your sakes that god has a plan for you in the future before its too late, I’d hate to see people try and repent to god after its too late, it upsets me to think of the pain you will all go through when I don’t even know you, let alone when I see it in my own eyes.
April 5, 2013 at 4:14 pm #1270305@Lshak 538297 wrote:
Very correct, but if I grew up a Jew and was a real jew I would have read the Torah, believed its prophecies followed it to the old testimony following it to islam. Everyone has a choice to read other religious books, and that’s why we are lucky compared to people back in the day who didnt have Internet to find sources
It’s not your place to say who is or isn’t a “real Jew” I would think…Plus the fact that Jesus preached the Trinity and that is not a belief in Judaism. In fact, saying that is heretical. In Devarim (Deuteronomy in English) it specifically states “Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one.” Which therefore invalidates Jesus’ status as a messiah. Since a lot of Christian and Islamic doctine holds contrary to the teachings of the Torah, you can’t say someone who is a Jew who decides not to follow Islam is “Not a real Jew.” You misread the Torah’s prophecies. You also failed to address any of the other religions.
“You go to heaven if you were born in the right country!”
April 5, 2013 at 4:14 pm #1270725@Lshak 538294 wrote:
Maybe someone can correct me but I’m out at the moment and can’t find the verse but Allah has told us not to believe anything unless we have read it for our selves and came to a conclusion solely, read the Quran, all of you, and maybe you will understand.
But I know you won’t, because the devil has made you believe Allah is a terrible god, educate yourselves by the book, and once you have finished it, we can discuss the topic and if love to then hear your views on god and religion
Otherwise you are blindly not following religion, isn’t it ironic you say we follow religion blindly without you reading the holy books ?
Admittedly, I haven’t read the Qu’uran so can’t comment on that, but thats exactly why I don’t talk about Islam and focus on Christianity as I have read the Bible and went to a CoE primary school.
Have you ever considered that Allah, God or whoever is actually the Devil and its all an evil ploy to get you to become a Satanist?
April 5, 2013 at 4:17 pm #1270661@General Lighting 538299 wrote:
what have you just had delivered to your door, and what activity are strongly religious people often suspected of doing to advance their causes? 😉
Hummm rackin my brains here man it’s a hard one!
I read up to see what Photodude had delivered to his door but found no info..
I don’t know what religious people do to advance their causes ermm, eating pork??April 5, 2013 at 4:18 pm #1270230@Pat McDonald 538292 wrote:
In my opinion, the vast majority of people are “mentally ill”, in the sense that their conditioned fears and prejudice get in the way of their judgements. Quite probably some of the people locked up as “insane” are actually the ones with the correct facts… but a population that had only correct facts, and no disinformation, would be very difficult to control for the humans who take up the power to direct.
.Its actually incredibly hard to get locked up as “insain” as you put it. There’s also people with learning difficulties to consider and all sorts.
Anyways always good to talk but I have been debating religion for years on PV and I do have those bangers….
Have a nice day folks.
April 5, 2013 at 4:22 pm #1270231@General Lighting 538299 wrote:
what have you just had delivered to your door, and what activity are strongly religious people often suspected of doing to advance their causes? 😉
ah I see your point *hides Quran and gets out pure white facepaint*. I dont know whats in them but I guess its in such a small quantity that a firework would be a more viable target. Still…
*shaves beard*
I call it a beard 🙁 more like small collection of hair.
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