Hardcore vs HHC

This topic has 21 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated June 2, 2005 at 6:42 am by krazykomrade.

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May 30, 2005 at 9:01 pm #1036472
krazykomrade
Participant
I’m a knee-jerk American here, so forgive me if I’m mistaken…

but it seems, from reading this and a few other British forums, that in England there is not a big distinction between Hardcore and Happy HardCore. Here in America, they are two completely seperate genres, with different DJs and differnt groups of people who like each. Some even call traditional Hardcore “Dark Hardcore” because its samples and styles are dark and intense and…. well hardcore I suppose. HHC is more of the cheesy, lyrical, kandie-kid music. Even when Scott Brown was here, his “hardcore” set included several major HHC tracks! While I myself favor sets that tastefully blend hardcore with HHC, they are seperate nonetheless. Many of the best local talent in the SouthWest does ONLY harcore, not HHC. Some posts here have described hardcore as “cheesy or corny” and to me, with my background, that comes off as you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about, because you havn’t been listening to REAL hardcore. Am I correct in assuming that the difference is less distinct or even non-existant in England, or perhaps I have misread some posts?
May 30, 2005 at 9:08 pm #1065764
BioTech
Participant
I would attempt to answer your question but I have no idea what HHC is, so I don’t think i’d be the ideal person to answer 🙂
May 30, 2005 at 9:18 pm #1065770
Munch
Participant
BioTech wrote:

I would attempt to answer your question but I have no idea what HHC is, so I don’t think i’d be the ideal person to answer 🙂

I’m assuming he’s meaning Happy Hardcore.
May 30, 2005 at 9:41 pm #1065779
krazykomrade
Participant
Indeed I was. Sorry for not clarifying. HHC for Happy Hardcore is analagous to me as using DnB instead of typing Drum and Bass.
May 31, 2005 at 1:49 pm #1065769
SdZ
Participant
I dont think we bundle the two together over here. I like Hardcore (as in Dark Hardcore) but despise the cheesy chipmunk happy hardcore. Ive never really even heard any happy hardcore played out anywhere to be honest. The only hardcore that i tend to hear is Dark Hardcore / Gabba.

The sort of hardcore i rate at the moment is Mindustries (check out their Deus Ex Machina album).

http://www.discogs.com/artist/Mindustries

Apart from that ive gone off the samey sounding synthy normal dutch hardcore. Bit bland tbo.
May 31, 2005 at 5:45 pm #1065765
BioTech
Participant
I don’t know loads about the hardcore scene but I think there definately is a distinction between the two, although it might not be blatantly obvious.

I think there are always different levels of “pigeon holeing” in all genres. A lot of people may class dnb & techno in the same group/genre. And some might break say, acid techno, into 5 or 6 different types.
May 31, 2005 at 5:59 pm #1065775
Anonymous
i cant say that there is a lot of either going round these days, as far as i know (and im prone to being wrong) hardcore is one of those genres that is resigned to history. in the same way that jungle turned into drum and bass, hardcore modified itself into other genres and it is effectively history over here. early nineties nostalgia. but at the same time, these are just words, pigeon holes as biotech said. its quite likely that there are tunes being made in gb that you would think are hardcore, but arent defined as such.

there was a similar conflict in DnB at the end of the nineties, when a lot more “jump up” and “liquid” drum and bass was being made, by people like roni size and ltj bukem, and there was a backlash within the scene promoting hard and dark dnb, of the kind from bad company and optical and ed rush.

the most happy vibe in the uk dance scene is psytrance parties, the best of which, imo, are put on by http://www.tribeoffrog.com (altho ive heard fatmoon throw a sick bash) , then you have house, which is shite commercial rubbish, but quite happy, then you have dnb which can go either way, techno’s a bit harder and then finally in the pits of hell, they play breakcore and gabber.

pigeonholetastic
May 31, 2005 at 8:35 pm #1065768
globalloon
Participant
USE wrote:

then you have house, which is shite commercial rubbish

unless it’s underground house

i think there is a bit of a happy hardcore scene going on, in places like shepton mallet arena… pay events like

and I’m sure i’ve heard hardcore at a london party or two.

then there’s what people in UK used to call hardcore, when there was only hardcore and fluffy… which are the jungle techno tunes circa 1991, which later evolved into DnB

but as a generalisation, if you say HHC in the UK it means chipmunks AFAIAK
May 31, 2005 at 11:59 pm #1065780
krazykomrade
Participant
Hardcore being resigned to history! BLASPHEMY!

Hardcore and DnB are the two major (somewhat competing) genres in the AZ scene. Hardcore was the original, then DnB broke off of it. Jungle came off of that. It all goes back to hardcore; the original. In fact, hardcore fans make up the greatest percentage of ravers at most parties here.

The scene here crashed in 2001 when Sammy “The Bull” Gravano (mob boss) got busted for basically having a monopoly on the ecstasy market in the southwestern United States. Hardcore began to die out, as the more “rebel” genres became more popular. Within the past year and half, however, the scene is rebuilding itself and exploding back up to its former glory, and Hardcore is the frontrunner genre that is leading the rest. I’ll post some samples of Arizona Hardcore when I get home, so you can see what I mean by hardcore, and compare it by your standards.
June 1, 2005 at 1:31 am #1065776
Anonymous
this cracks me up:

how much stuff have they brought to a rave? the whole kandi-kid phenomenon seems to specifically a stateside thing, it looks mad, i’d love to go to one of those raves, just to check it out. i cant think of an event that you could bring all that crap to in uk, i think you have a more optimistic scene than we do, we’re all a bit jaded i recon. yje closest thing is psytrance.
June 1, 2005 at 2:16 am #1065781
krazykomrade
Participant
Well, the rave from that photo is a desert party. You just drive your car out in the desert, and all park around a clearing where the rave is. If you can fit it in your car, you can bring it to the rave! People bring hookahs, tents, picnic gear, BBQs, and all sorts of stuff. Thats one of the advantages to desert parties, is that you can always walk 50 feet to your car and get whatever you want.

If you have some time, check out these samples so you can see what I am talking about. I know you’ve never heard of these guys, but try them out and see what you think; they’re our local Superstars for a reason.

AZ Hardcore:
Cik at Nocturnal Wonderland

AZ Happy Hardcore:
DJ Sixxx – Choke Bitches 2 (winzip file, well worth the extra minute to download)

If you’re interested in more of the like, just AIM me or email me or something.
Thats just a sample of how we do. 🙂
June 1, 2005 at 9:14 am #1065766
BioTech
Participant
Nice one krazykom. I’ll have a listen when I get home.
June 1, 2005 at 7:55 pm #1065771
elretardo87
Participant
Been out all weekend so I missed this thread. Anyhow…I do like my hardcore. hardcore has not died. Old school hardcore is still alive and kicking….just a bit more difficult to find as most of it is French. I have always known true oldschool hardcore as French hardcore just because…that sounds a bitty like this. This stuff is immense and pisses over any other type of hardcore IMO.

The links you gave, to hardcore are to the new school more commercial hardcore you’ll find on masters of hardcore or thunderdome. I do really like this stuff as well….especially guys like Angerfist and evil activities (just a sample). As you can probably tell from the angerfist track…its just a bitty cheesey sometimes.

Now happy hardcore…I’m not going to say much as I can rant for hours on this subject. Basically I hate it…with a passion. Just really not my cup of tea.
June 1, 2005 at 7:59 pm #1065777
Anonymous
cheers retardo! i knew it was about, i just dint know where!

i listened to the yankcore, and i was indifferent to it. not my cup of tea, bit too housey 😉
June 1, 2005 at 8:12 pm #1065772
elretardo87
Participant
look for the #icilombre room on soulseek
June 1, 2005 at 8:13 pm #1065782
krazykomrade
Participant
elretardo87 wrote:

Been out all weekend so I missed this thread. Anyhow…I do like my hardcore. hardcore has not died. Old school hardcore is still alive and kicking….just a bit more difficult to find as most of it is French. I have always known true oldschool hardcore as French hardcore just because…that sounds a bitty like this. This stuff is immense and pisses over any other type of hardcore IMO.

The links you gave, to hardcore are to the new school more commercial hardcore you’ll find on masters of hardcore or thunderdome. I do really like this stuff as well….especially guys like Angerfist and evil activities (just a sample). As you can probably tell from the angerfist track…its just a bitty cheesey sometimes.

Now happy hardcore…I’m not going to say much as I can rant for hours on this subject. Basically I hate it…with a passion. Just really not my cup of tea.
Can’t listen to those yet cuz I’m at work now; I’ll check them out later tonight. You think that’s got a newschool sound? Thats insane; I’d say the exact opposite. Here that is somewhat oldschool, and about as UN-commercial as you can get. Arizona is known for its more underground feel and sound to its hardcore and DJs, California has always been our bigger and more commercial, played out brother. I’ve never heard of French Hardcore. Suppose I’ll have to wait till I can listen to your links to see what your “less commercial” hardcore sounds like.
June 1, 2005 at 9:13 pm #1065773
elretardo87
Participant
I’m not saying it is commercial….its just more commercial than the stuff knocked together by a random guy at home and then only 500 copies are ever pressed.
June 1, 2005 at 10:32 pm #1065767
BioTech
Participant
Brice. I didn’t get a chance to listen to the second one but the first one sounds a lot like old hardcore techno mixed with todays gabba. Like I say, i’m not that involved in the hardcore scene so I don’t know if this is typical of stuff over here too.
June 2, 2005 at 1:50 am #1065783
krazykomrade
Participant
LOL, that angerfist track reminds me of the previews for a Jean-Claude Van Damme movie. Evil activities sounds a lot like LA hardcore, a bit simpler with greater emphasis on but less tact with consistant samples. That french hardcore is….. wierd. Kinda what I’d expect from “french hardcore.” I don’t know, maybe I’m just not used to it. Seems kinda like a fortune 500 CEO trying to start playing the blues… doesn’t really seem to fit.

No offense, but I wouldn’t want to listen to something knocked together by a random guy at his home. That second sample I listed, Choke Bitches II, has probably 200 copies in existence. And CIK was playing live, the only tracks of that are ones downloaded of the internet from what people recorded at his set. Just because a DJ is well known, doesn’t mean they’re commercial. Perhaps things are different on different sides of the pond.
June 2, 2005 at 2:39 am #1065778
Anonymous
well, it seems that ione thing both scenes have in common is the “im more underground than you are” one upmanship which is pretty rife, especially between systems (albeit in a half joking pisstake way).

its an easy trap to fall into.
June 2, 2005 at 3:21 am #1065774
elretardo87
Participant
USE wrote:

well, it seems that ione thing both scenes have in common is the “im more underground than you are” one upmanship which is pretty rife, especially between systems (albeit in a half joking pisstake way).

its an easy trap to fall into.

I wasnt meaning it like that….I just think that MOH and this AZ hardcore sounds very similar and thusly would class them as the same thing and MOH is not exactly underground as you can see from the type of festivals they put on. That is why I classs them as commercial as a lot of money is put into the gigs.

and as with any genre there are smaller artists….like the ones you mentioned. It was a bit of an exageration saying it is made by some random guy in his house…..that track that i gave you was in fact as a guy i met online made it in fruity loops, so its not a great track just the first one i could find hosted online. TBH I dont see why youl wouldnt want to listen to music produced at home, if the guy has the equiptment what difference does it make if he produced it at home or not.
The reason it is underground is this newschool hardcore…similar to the tracks Brice linked to…became more popular in the “legal rave” scene and the illegal (unlicensed) rave scene slowed substantially.

While AZ hardcore may be very underground it is IMO very similar in sound to the stuff I linked. The tracks I linked to were just ones I saw at the time…this, is more similar I think. I’m not saying I don’t like it I do….just I prefer “french hardcore” because of the rolling basslines and the reduced cheese factors.
June 2, 2005 at 6:42 am #1065784
krazykomrade
Participant
well, it seems that ione thing both scenes have in common is the “im more underground than you are” one upmanship which is pretty rife, especially between systems (albeit in a half joking pisstake way).

I don’t think its as much a one upmanship, is conflicting scene values on what exactly “underground” is. Underground is a very subjective term, I’m sure we can all agree, and I think that with our scenes having such varied backgrounds and total differences in the popularity of various genres and practical external factors, that our respective scenes have different defintions of “underground” as well as different defintions of “hardcore.” Its just fun to try and figure out exactly what the other guy means when they say it.

I wasnt meaning it like that….I just think that MOH and this AZ hardcore sounds very similar and thusly would class them as the same thing and MOH is not exactly underground as you can see from the type of festivals they put on. That is why I classs them as commercial as a lot of money is put into the gigs.

As mentioned above, I’m just trying to figure out how our scenes have different reasoning. You said MOH is commercial, because they put a lot of money into their gigs. But the hardcore samples you listened to are commercial because of their sound, and similar style to MOH? Personally, here in AZ that MOH stuff wouldn’t fly. Its the type of “hardcore” that gets played on radio stations (The local one called “Energy” here, has been stealing venues from our scene and is more of a threat than the cops) along with “club” house and stuff on MTV. A different group of people listen to that type of dance music in major clubs we have downtown, than the group of people who go to underground events. Regardless of the popularity of various genres, it seems wierd to class one group as commercial because of their finances, and another group because of its sound.

and as with any genre there are smaller artists….like the ones you mentioned. It was a bit of an exageration saying it is made by some random guy in his house…..that track that i gave you was in fact as a guy i met online made it in fruity loops, so its not a great track just the first one i could find hosted online. TBH I dont see why youl wouldnt want to listen to music produced at home, if the guy has the equiptment what difference does it make if he produced it at home or not.

I had a problem with the “random guy” not the producing at home. All of the tracks that are produced in AZ are produced at the artists homes; there are no where near anyone big enough to have their own studio. Most artists here only produce a few hundred CDs, some of our headliners more because they travel out of state.

While AZ hardcore may be very underground it is IMO very similar in sound to the stuff I linked. The tracks I linked to were just ones I saw at the time…this, is more similar I think. I’m not saying I don’t like it I do….just I prefer “french hardcore” because of the rolling basslines and the reduced cheese factors.

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Well, except for the samples sounding similar, your sample seems to stick out like a sore thumg to me, and I figured that mine would to you too. Our scenes have INVERSE opinions of what hardcore is. The “french” hardcore I sampled with the rolling basslines (Dnb what?) would be considered pretty cheesy in Arizona, while the hardcore I sampled is considered evil hardcore, the least cheesy of all, here. I’m sure it somehow goes back to different patterns of music and which styles have been popular such and such long to determine whats considered what. Ya know?
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