dougmelv
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[quote=Iacchus;337176
Care to speculate how understanding of life will lead to the powerful currupting the knowledge for foul means?
No offence but that seems a bit like revalations style doom and gloom prophesy with no logical basis to me. Science sure has led to tools of destruction being created but AFAIK it certainly never directly led to corruption in society, so I’m not sure what you are referring to when you say that ‘history shows’ [/quote]Does read read a bit like a doom and gloom prophecy. i was getting at the fact that the knowledge that scientists discover is often used for purposes other than good or that in the application of science unintended consequences can arise which are devastation or that simply much scientific advancement is driven by the drive to destroy other humans.
past examples would include Hiroshima, nagasaki, sellafeild 1957, Various atomic weapons tests since, chernobyl, global warming, world war 1 and two, modern warfare in general, agent orange, phosphate polution, crude oil pollution, traffic pollution, plastic waste, oceanic rubbish, depleated uranium shells, land mines, household effluents, industrial effluents, etc etc.
As scientific understanding gets more advanced so does the potention for things to go wrong. It is not scientists who have control of the discoveries that they make or the application of those discoveries, it is the politic or other rich powerful and often morally corrupt people.
I’m not anti-science. I’m just sceptical of the ability of the human race to put scientific discoveries to good use and avoid the continuous stream of problems scientific discovey seems to leave in its wake.you probably know all about Chernobyl, from your degree. if you don’t you should watch this video.
The True Battle of Chernobyl Uncensored
where is the next dissaster going to come from. does it have its roots in the LHC perhaps?
Iacchus;336830 wrote:I understand where you’re coming from because I used to think the same way, i come from a very christian family, and letting go of my old beliefs has been a slow difficult process, but if anything science has strengthened my belief in a creator. Science need not take away the wonder and mysticism in the universe, not unless you want it to.if you believe in a creator then you believe in God. God is, in the popular conciousness, the creator. science and reason may have cast doubt the method, mechanisms and timescales of traditional creationist belief and religion may have created a personality for God and portrayed a level of personal inimacy between humans and God that is open to question, but these are differences in detail and belief.
I believe that the scientific theories of creationism are just as full of dogma as the religious ones. If we ever do find out all the answers through science i reckon we’ll all be fucked because the few people who are smart enough to know the power of God will be pawns in the game of the powerful ,and as history shows, the knowlegde will be corrupted and used for foul means.
Thanks for the perspective. take care.interesting post. although i don’t understand a lot of it. looks like you know your stuff. i still don’t buy it. i just don’t have that much faith in science. but it is facinating.
someone once said to me that believing life originated from ‘random’ events is like an ‘alien’ walking through a city looking at at the buildings and structures and supposing that they came together by accident.
i understand a bit about evolution theory (mutation and natural selection) and it is a neet way of accounding for changes over time within species. I just can’t stretch it back as far as bridging the gap between single celled organisms and sentient life forms.
This could simply be down to my lack of knowledge in this area but it seems to me to be just as much of a leap of faith to believe this as one would take in believing God created humans ,or in light of scientific theory, that God created hominids which evolved into humans. The fossil record is a bit gappy too. and some of the theories are ,well , just that. like‘man first walked upright because climate change caused the forest habitat to receed, so those with the adaption to walk on two legs survived (my saving energy or seeing higher) thus passing on their genes’
this makes a lot of sense but we just don’t know. maybe a majic lightning bolt came out the sky and zapped the ‘monkeys’ ankle???
My own feeling is that the increasing complexity of life forms is a result of the purposeful refinement and improvement of organisms and biospheres by a higher power. but thats just a feeling.
I would be truely interested to hear an easy to understand account of the transition from single cell to sentient beings as science see’s it.p0lygon-Window;336079 wrote:you know that joshit’s funny when religious people go on about MORALS COMING FROM THE BIBLE!! so if they didnt have the bible they’d go around raping and killing?
isnt that what happened in ancient times?? i don’t know my history that well yet but i think the vikings probably did a bit of raping and pilaging.
prehistoric man i’m sure did a bit of raping and killing as well.morals don’t only come from the bible but they are in there. without MORALS we probably would go about raping and killing on a whim.
ellie;336050 wrote:you seem to pick out the ‘bad’ people who dont follow religious doctrine but won’t accept the ‘bad’ people who do follow religious doctrine. surely it shows there is good and bad whether you follow the bible or not.things arn’t always as they seem. i was only using the problem children on my estate to illustrate what can happen without moral supervision.
i think religious extremists are nuts. ie crazy. and lots of bad people follow religious doctorines.
i don’t think world or social problems are going to be sloved by people converting to religion on mass. there are too many competing ideologies on the world stage.
the genie is out the bottle in this country . the power of the church as a social governing institution is deminished and the control of ideas by the church is broken. if it keeps people doing good things then its still a good thing. it does also offer a tried and tested option for self improvement and moral retraining and i would highly recomend it to any reprobates out there.
and before we are too quick to point out the error of other peoples beliefs ( in what we see as myth and legend), we should think about our own beliefs and how accurate they are.
its one thing to be able to say‘yeh religion sucks only a fool would believe that stuff’
but if the beliefs we have instead are largley incorrect then we haven’t really progressed that far at all.
hmm…
perhaps the bible will give me some insight….
got to go now and do busy stuff now. an idle mind is the devils work shop. 😉
its fine to be a drug addict, they are only harming their selves, up until the point where they neglect their children sometimes causing them irreperable damage. the point i was making was that if you want to see what happens when children are left to their own devises to bring them selves up, i can tell you. they make up their own rules through negotiation with their peers. by 12 they might think it is ok to stab someone if they disrespect them.
got to go pick this up ltr
Iacchus;336015 wrote:I agree previous generations definately contribute to conscience but I’m pretty sure if you completely removed any upbringing from someone they would still develop their own morality… how does one test this theory? :weee:come and look at the children of the drug addicts and alchoholics on my estate!
ellie;336010 wrote:yeah, but i don’t know any of them. 😉 plus, its fickle. none of them give a sh*t about her anymore.thats my point. the fickle nature of modern belief formation vs the established moral framework of religion.
Iacchus;336007 wrote:Id say your conscience provides a better moral framework. I’ve always known hurting someone else is wrong despite how much I’ve observed my peers doing it or violence in the media. Also I’ve always known sex outside marriage is not wrong despite what the bible says, because it doesnt feel wrong when you’re in a loving relationship.As jiminy cricket said, ‘always let your conscience be your guide’
Although I do wonder if evil bastards have a conscience and surpress it, or just dont at all..
what is a conscience when you get down to it? how do we know to do unto others as we would haev them do unto us? I didnt have to be taught that I’ve always been nice to people and sad when other people are sad..
i would argue your concience could be trace back through past generations to religious instruction. for example my great grandad who i never met was a preist. although my mother was not religious she gave me the foundations of my moral framework which was taught to her by her mother who was religious.
yes, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water when thinking about religious belief. alot of stuff in religious texts is very relevant to how good people think and there is lots of stuff in there that i had/ have not thought about but has had/could have a very positive effect on my world veiw. I’ve not read it all. its on my to do list along with half a million other things. what i have read has been really useful. but i agree their is some pretty offensive stuff in their too. Not all christians want to stone homosexuals, Gene Robinson for exmple. Any way i’m not trying to defend christians, some of them are intollerant hate mongers of which i’m sure Jesus would not approve.
ellie;335998 wrote:also, i dont know anyone who takes charleen or chantel, as speaking sense, let alone speacking the gospel truth!Jade, god rest her soul (cough!), seemed to have quite a following.
ellie;335948 wrote:I dont see how belief in a religion has any more substance than beliefs from parents media etc. I would say that religion IS, in most cases, a belief formed from the messages we are exposed to at birth from our parents… and are full of errors.but yeah, i see your point if you were to say that they were perhaps equally blind faiths.
i’m not saying religious doctorines and beliefs are without error. more that they provide a good moral framework (not a perfect one) , better i would argue than for example what charleen did on neighbours or what chantel said on big brother or what billy brag said. i bet charleens not even in neighbours anymore, lol, what an old bastard i am!
no. but i know people who do and they are good people. i respect others beliefs. just like if i believed wearing aftershave, putting blonde streaks through my hair and wearing expensive clothes would make me happy i wouldn’t expect a lecture me about vanity, pride, materialism or the things that they think to be importaint. i wouldn’t want them to mock me either. if i was a good person i would expect them to have tollerance for my misguided beliefs.
In defense of people who believe in a specific religious doctorine i would say at least they believe in something with substance. lots of people today form their beliefs , often unwittingly and in quite an adhoc manner, from the world they experience around them. The messages we are exposed to from birth from our parents, freinds, schools, TV soaps, magazines, TV news, newspapers, books, internet, adverts, corporations, employers, work mates, police, polititions etc..etc.., are all full of errors.
For example watching internet porn could lead you to the belief that women like to be treated like that, or lead women to the belief that they want to be treated like that. Or just reading a newspaper article could leave you with several false beliefs. Just looking at a bill board. A conversation in the pub. something you work out in your head.
We are inundated with masses of corrupt information every day. too much to even be fully concious of. when we try to make sense of it we use our beliefs which we have formed through a lifetime of being bomdarded with misinformation. Probably most of what each of us believes to be true is false.
So, some people critisise others who follow religion for being unquestioning and gullable and believing in nonsense. I would say those people probably believe in even more nonsense, are even easier led and that although they think they are critical of the world around them, they probably don’t really question what they do or think that much.p0lygon-Window;335740 wrote:you’d rather listen to a preist because you are religious?more because at leasts preists have an educated and interesting perspective. I try not to mix belief in religion with belief in God. although the two are often lumped together they are different.
I think Einstien means that the patterns (laws/organisation/harmony etc..)within the universe that we, even with our limited understanding can observe, suggest intelligent design.A lot of people critisise religious believers for blind faith. i would say if we could look at the beliefs we hold i.e the things we understand about our own worlds and the things we follow or do that give meaning to our lives and the way we choose to define our selves and the realities we create amoungst our selves, then if we take this to be truth then we all have blind faith in our own perception of the world. Our ability to convinse our selves that how we see the world is accurate, is frightening. Spirituality and/or religion can help to guide some people in the right direction. Kind of a higher (external) truth or a benchmark of morality to consider or to aim for.
i don’t think he’s making good points. he is masturbating with his limited grasp of concepts. infact his whinny american/loid grossman accent made me feel sick.
“now then boys and girls , consider this…..” :yakk::yakk::yakk::yakk:
i would rather listen to a preist than that smarmy twat.
I believe in God. To me it is a very logical conclusion.This quote from Einstein is good
“I’m not an atheist. I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws.”
abiogenesis. i don’t think science will never answer this question. it will only provide increasingly complex theories that are wrong in an even more complicated way. the simple answer to origins of life on earth is ‘God put it there’. the more difficult question is What is God?. for all we know seeds of life could have be blasted here in a space craft from a planet in another solar system or our creators could be hidding on venus monitoring their game/experiment (with tech we don’t yet have the ability to detect) as their human creations dominate the planet. he could also be an old man with a beard that appears in the clouds . unfortunately ,or perhaps fortunately given our track record with knowledge, i think humans are too stupid (cognitavely limited) to ever understand the truth about creation of the universe and life. for me science has disproved conventional religious creationist mythology but failed to come up with a decent alternative. intelectual people are saying ‘doh! like i’d ever believe in creationism’ whilst seemingly unwittingly swallowing the dogma of science.
i try not to think about it apart from on special occasions cause i’m not that smart and i like the happy bubble that is my reality.
xxalthough i’m new to this i think the difference between PV and SJ is one of mentality.
PV seems to have a core of good people who know a bit about each other and are polite and respectful and don’t engage as freely in offensive exchanges or respond to childish posts in a childish way. I think the moderators play a very importaint role too keeping it civil and giving advise about appropriate threads of conversation.
Suffice to say like mind people tend to seek company together and it is reasonable to assume that if the ‘wrong’ kind of poster was eather fed (as a troll) or found a small network of reinforcement within the PV forum and/or was tollerated by the moderators and members they would quite happily post shit here all day long.Beans are great.
try mixing ground black pepper in them. makes them new and interesting.
or to be realy fancy
tin of beans + couples teaspoons of garamasala spice mix + some dried chillies or chilli powder(1/2 to 1 teaspoon). chuck it over some boiled spagetti. whay hey!.. curried bean pasta. of course serve with tomatoe ketchup too.
or melt cheddar into your beans – cheesey beans
or soft yolked eggs, beans and chips. what a combo!
don’t knock beans they are number one!
If you want some cheap nutrition try this. once youve done it twice i takes 5 mins.
get gram flour (chick pea)
8 big spoons in a bowl.
grate onion, carrot, broccoli, crushed peas what ever veg you like (not turnip or potato or tomato they don’t bind well)
salt (1/2 teaspoon)
garamasala (two table spoons)
turmeric (1/2 teaspoon)
chilli (1 tea spoon)
corriander leaf and extra(its in the garamasala powder) corriander powder if you likeadd water stirring loads till its like thick melted ice cream texture.
fry it like pancakes in a little oil till its brown and crispy on each side.
you can also dipp bread in the batter (without the veg) and fry it too.
sooo easy and vegan too.
the birds round here are mental too. always makin noise early mornings and in the middle of the night. lean out your window and tell her to shut the fuck up and fuck off out your garden. that usually works.
:love:the birds round here are mental too. always makin noise early mornings and in the middle of the night. lean out your window and tell her to shut the fuck up and fuck off out your garden. that usually works.
:love:Raj;314964 wrote:If the child is constantly being neglected maybe you should notify social services? He may be at risk of more than neglect and thats what the social work departments are actually for.It does make me angry when people treat their children like this :hopeless:
yeh mate in an ideal world the social would have the kids off this and other neglecting parents. trouble is, here anyway, there are so few foster places available that neglect is downgraded as a priority with most of the places going to physical or sexual abuse. social are very reluctant to put a kid in a home cause its not good for the kid and also places are limited. lots of the kids round here have social workers, including the one i was talking about. in fact every member of that family has their own social worker. the emphasis is on support within the home envirnoment. she even had a couple of social workers come and take her kids to school each day for several months.
i don’t know though…. is it better to have a skank whore as a mother or get brought up in a childrens home? its a tough one. either way the kid is robbed of a childhood.Raj;314964 wrote:If the child is constantly being neglected maybe you should notify social services? He may be at risk of more than neglect and thats what the social work departments are actually for.It does make me angry when people treat their children like this :hopeless:
yeh mate in an ideal world the social would have the kids off this and other neglecting parents. trouble is, here anyway, there are so few foster places available that neglect is downgraded as a priority with most of the places going to physical or sexual abuse. social are very reluctant to put a kid in a home cause its not good for the kid and also places are limited. lots of the kids round here have social workers, including the one i was talking about. in fact every member of that family has their own social worker. the emphasis is on support within the home envirnoment. she even had a couple of social workers come and take her kids to school each day for several months.
i don’t know though…. is it better to have a skank whore as a mother or get brought up in a childrens home? its a tough one. either way the kid is robbed of a childhood.
